What makes a removable resonator less ideal than a flange design

I've been playing banjo a little while now, but banjo construction and design eludes me. I've noticed that there are banjos with removable resonators, but they are not very popular especially with the higher end models. I'm noticing this while looking at tenor banjos, but it applies to all banjos.

there must be some benefit to the typical flange. What's the difference between a banjo with a removable resonator and one with a flange? Of course the ones with the flange are removable too, but it doesn't seem to be as good a solution for someone who wants one banjo that they can play old time open back and bluegrass resonator on for instance.

I'll poke at this...

A flange adds mass, it's also decorative. The mass will brighten the tone, and obviously the decoration is nice to look at.

There's more to the switch from old-time to bluegrass than adding a resonator too. A good old-time banjo just isn't going to be a good bluegrass banjo by adding a resonator; nor is a good bluegrass banjo going to become a good old-time banjo by merit of removing the resonator.

Now, yes, one can play either style on any sort of banjo, but the in the "real world" there are fairly popular ideas of what each type of banjo should sound like. If you take the resonator off of a well set up banjo for bluegrass with a tone ring and flange it's just going to sound like a bluegrass banjo without the resonator - that's not what I would want for old time. Same goes for a well set up old time banjo... just adding a resonator doesn't make it a good bluegrass banjo.

For me, those "convertible" banjos with the pop-on/off resonators just don't thrill me. I'm not willing to sacrifice tone for the convenience of popping of a resonator -- something I'd probably never do anyways.

As someone who plays both styles regularly it just makes more sense to me to just have two banjos. That way I don't have to figure out what to do with a resonator if I was to take it off. Truthfully, there's really no reason to remove the resonator if you're playing old-time.

I made a couple of videos a while back kinda talking about these sorts of things...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDUqA072ZbA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHCQHlZJom0

Hi LBV - Ivan from the Mandolin Cafe here. Re.5-string banjos,they fall into 2 camps - Open back = no resonator at all,& resonator banjos with the resonator & flange. I'm not too sure what you mean about banjos with removable resonators though,but that's only because i haven't seen the style you mean. The resonator can be removed from any banjo that has one as you say. The resonator flange is there to 'fill in' the gap around the banjo - they'd look odd without one. Also,as Jim correctly states in his post,they do add extra mass (weight) which helps form a sturdy base for the 'skin' to resonate against. A point - is there anything on a banjo that's so incorrectly named as the 'resonator' ??. The 'resonator on my Stelling certainly doesn't 'resonate'. What it does is to 'reflect' or 'project' the 'noise' that the vibrating skin makes.
Jim has it right on another point - have 2 banjos,both properly suited to each music style. For Bluegrass,you need the 'up-front' bright,ringing,well 'projected' tone of a resonator banjo with a good tone ring. For ''Old Timey' music,the quieter,more subtle 'rural' tone of a good open back banjo is what's needed (IMHO). What's more,i absolutely love the 'contrasting tone' that you get from each style. Simply removing the resonator from a Bluegrass style banjo just gives you 'more of the same',but quieter.
If i played Old Timey music which i love,i'd try to find a really good open back banjo & enjoy 'the difference',
Ivan;)

Thank you Jim that's a lot of good info! All makes sense to me now

Ivan, like I said they're not very popular, but they apparently used to be. I see them a lot on vintage banjos from the 20s and such. There's quite a few different methods. There's Gibsons trapdoors, some are just screw in jobs, some on the Weymanns just seem to pop off. As well as the Deering John Hartford Model.

im very happy with my open back 5 string. But in the future if I get some extra funds together I would like to get a tenor. I prefer open backs for the most part, but I was wondering about the convertible models like Weymanns and Gibson Trapdoors

Have found the removable resonator (after-market) to be quite handy. Got the Sosobee EZ Resonator for my open-back Deering GoodTime Tenor just for an experiment. The item is a basically a circular piece of maple with fitted wooden braces to match against the pot rim, all held in place with a screw-adjusted connector that pressure-clamps to the rod.

Have gone back-and-forth with this item on the tenor banjo. It doesn't seem to change tone, but it does result in a louder play. Right now it's installed on my GoodTime banjo-uke (same 11-inch pot) and has upped the output of the nylon-stringed banjo-uke.

I wish I could say my hearing was sensitive enough to discern minute changes in tone, but these almost-70-year-old collectors have "mellowed" somewhat. So, I'm more concerned with the resonator being in-essence a non-electrified amp. There are times for it, and times not for it. If one has extra instruments where each is equipped differently and set at different tuning, all the better. Absent that, the removable resonator can be a cost trade-off with some merit.

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Originally Posted by Ivan Kelsall

I'm not too sure what you mean about banjos with removable resonators though,but that's only because i haven't seen the style you mean. The resonator can be removed from any banjo that has one as you say. The resonator flange is there to 'fill in' the gap around the banjo - they'd look odd without one.

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Some resonator models do have removable brackets in lieu of a fixed flange. My Ode model 6510, for instance, uses shoe brackets all the way around the rim (which I think we had discussed previously over at MC). It would be quite a chore to take them all off, but it would allow the banjo to be stripped down to just an open-back rim with no provision for putting the resonator back on. Obviously, some of them do have to be there to mount the resonator (the ones that receive the resonator studs/nuts), and I agree it would look strange for the other brackets to be missing and show a gap.

Given the way this one is constructed/configured, though, it really doesn't sound that great as an open-back. So the resonator stays on.

I won't proclaim to be any sort of banjo expert, especially for resonator styles, but my opinion on LBV's original question is that there really isn't any advantage to a design that tries to live in both worlds. Jim Pankey summed up my feelings on it pretty well. A "good" bluegrass -style resonator model is built so differently from a "good" open-back model that there isn't much satisfaction in playing one that compromises both designs.

Thanks LBV / Tobin - It seems that you were refering to an older style of banjo which,as i said i haven't seen. - "....uses shoe brackets all the way around the rim...". I know what they are. Most UK made banjos going back to pre-war times used that style of bracket held on by a scew that passed through the wooden 'pot'. None of the UK made banjos at that time had what you'd call a proper 'tone ring' as per the Gibson banjos - come to think of it,did many US made banjos other than Gibson have one ?. There's some interesting info. here on Roger Simioff's website :- http://siminoff.net/gibson-rim-evolution/
Ivan

Right there's also the ones Tobin mentions with the removable bracket type flanges. But these that I'm talking about are basically just open back banjos with a resonator affixed.

Which models are you looking at? I know Deering makes the John Hartford model with the pop-off resonator to convert to something closely resembling a real open-back, but I'm not very familiar with the details of it. I've also seen various small builders with a donut-shaped resonator fitted to open-back models. What other makers/brands offer something similar?

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Originally Posted by Tobin

Which models are you looking at? I know Deering makes the John Hartford model with the pop-off resonator to convert to something closely resembling a real open-back, but I'm not very familiar with the details of it. I've also seen various small builders with a donut-shaped resonator fitted to open-back models. What other makers/brands offer something similar?

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just various vintage tenor banjos from the 20s ~ but I see them on 5 strings as well. I don't know of any current maker still offering them other than the Deering Hartford.

some examples below

Gibson trapdoor
Attachment 386

Weymann. As far as I can tell these are velcroed on
Attachment 387

Another Weymann
Attachment 388